Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs/Dog breeds task force/Archive 1

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Video Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs/Dog breeds task force/Archive 1

Moved discussions

Review Spaniel article

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Breed grouping. Elf | Talk 05:43, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dog pages footer

moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories Elf | Talk 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Categories

moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories Elf | Talk 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Categories, Cont'd....

moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories Elf | Talk 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

More about Categories

moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories Elf | Talk 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Non-list lists

moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories Elf | Talk 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Categories (part 23)

moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories Elf | Talk 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Breeds by countries

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Breed grouping. Elf | Talk 05:43, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dog type subcategories?

MOved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Breed grouping. Elf | Talk 05:43, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Color of breed tables

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Common Nickname

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

"No image yet" photo link

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Dog Registries

(And discussion on where (which articles) to include discussions of ACK vs breed clubs as authorities on breeds.) Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Format of images in tables

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Dog-stub template

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Removing dog stubs

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Policy on Registries in table is POV

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

new dog breed table template - ready to go

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates. Elf | Talk 04:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Maps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs/Dog breeds task force/Archive 1

Sample dog article for projects project

{{SampleWikiProject}}

Anyone got a preferred article from List of dog breeds? I think it should be one with a photo, but other than that I'm easy - I'll have a look through some tomorrow to see what goodies we have. -- sannse 23:46, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Afghan Hound isn't bad although it's still a wee bit POV I think, but it does use the new thumbnail image format. Newfoundland is nice because it has more than one image and the text is a little better, but neither image uses the thumbnail format. Elf 03:34, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What about Alaskan Malamute, it's short but covers all the points asked for by the WikiProject. It's also very neutral. I've changed the image to a the thumbnail format. If not, either of those you mentioned looks good -- sannse (talk) 11:06, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That works for me. Elf 20:28, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done -- sannse (talk) 00:06, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just noticed that it doesn't use the new table markup but instead uses HTML tbl markup. Ditto with the template on this project's meta page. Which way to we want to go? Your latest sample in your sandbox uses the new markup, and that's what I've been assuming we'd go with--? Elf 17:52, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should change over - it's purely a matter of getting round to it. I think that's what I'll work on this evening, I've only got an hour or so though so won't get that far tonight. I'll do the template and Alaskan Malamute first then see how far I get down the list, feel free to do any you want to of course. -- sannse (talk) 18:51, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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More than just dog breeds

There have been discussions in other areas about having main category pages that provide an index into related articles. While trying to find something earlier, I was thinking that an index/category page of dog-related articles would be a good thing to have. (We'd reference List of dog breeds in that index, not the individual breed pages.) It could have subcategories like descriptions, activities, history, biology, sociology (I dunno, what would you call Dog adoption, animal shelter, and the like?). Does anyone know if such a thing exists? If not, who understands Wikipedia well enough to suggest an appropriate title and/or a sample index page from some other topic area? Elf 03:30, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I found List of biology topics, but it's so huge they've arranged it alphabetically rather than by category. List of production topics is by category. Elf 05:14, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, being the impatient sort, I'm already answering my own question and starting List of dog topics. :-) Elf 05:38, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) Whew! Did a google search on everything with the word "dog" in it; gave up after the references started to be few & far between. And, as usual, google list is out of date, so more recent entries didn't show up. Suggestions, additions, organization welcome. Elf 06:10, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Looks good! I can think of a couple of additions, although it looks pretty comprehensive, I'll add some later -- sannse (talk) 11:06, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Heh! That "couple" I mentioned - you already found them. Good work -- sannse (talk) 00:08, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dang! You mean I could've taken the afternoon off? Elf 00:20, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Request for photo

Hi, can we have a photo of a couple of different dogs of different breeds together to put onto artificial selection please? preferably one big one and one little fluffy one? Duncharris 15:12, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

I'll see whether I can arrange that some weekend while I'm surrounded by canine-type beast things. Mostly I do dog agility, which doesn't work well for really big breeds, so largest I'm likely to see are German Shepherd Dogs or maybe a Briard. Other challenge is that dogs who don't know each other might not want to stand comfortably next to each other for a photo, and most dog owners tend to have only large or only small dogs. I might be able to get a Border Collie and a Jack Russell Terrier together. Elf | Talk 00:59, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I might have better luck if I go to a show this year - I'm not sure yet if I will, but if I do I'll look out for a good combination too. A similar photo that would be useful is the three types of poodle together, and other images of similar situations (and I want a pony...) -- sannse (talk) 07:49, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I just added Image:IMG013biglittledogFX wb.jpg. Elf | Talk 06:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Excellent Elf, that really does the job -- sannse (talk) 09:23, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, no pony, though. :-) Wish I had a photo--last year at Agility Camp, for the costume contest, one of the attendees said she was tired of people asking whether her Great Dane was some kind of pony, so she did a completely professional job of dressing the Dane *as* a pony--matching tail and mane and a litle saddle, and that's all it took! It was hysterical. And I don't often get hysterical-- Elf | Talk 15:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC) Oh, wait--I found a photo online: Great Dane pony!

Heh, wonderful -- sannse (talk) 16:14, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Help! Emergency! I've messed up the DOG article!

I didn't mean to. I was edited the bottom section and adding to it and every time I tried to do a preview and save it kept freezing on me.

Finally it worked, but to my horror my ammended section has REPLACE the entire article! Can somebody reverse this FAST? Quill 01:30, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Kennel Club or 'kennel club'

BTW, you don't have to capitalize text that's linked unless it's a proper name; for example, dog breeding. Wikipedia automatically looks for a matching article whose first letter is capitalized. Pretty clever of them, huh? (Quote from a Wikipedian who shall remain nameless)

• Yeah, I thought so, until I realized that titles of articles are case sensitive. Here's a for instance: for weeks I've been thinking that we had no article for 'kennel club' and we really need one. Have a few minutes, and I'm ready to write, and typed 'kennel club', lower case, which led to 'Kennel Club' (upper case), which is a 'disambig' page. Didn't remember seeing that before. Was about to start, but something was nagging at the back of my brain saying I was sure that links showed no kennel club article--don't get ahead of me, folks--you guessed it--the links in our articles go to 'kennel club', lower case. So...I'm going to put my stub at 'kennel club', because that's what I mean, and anyone with an objection or a better idea can move it...change it...etc. Quill 09:22, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's a bit more complicated than that I'm afraid. The first word of a link to an article title is not case sensitive (This link and this link are the same) but further words are (This Link and This link are not the same). Article titles have to have first word capitalised, which is why the "iMac" article is at "IMAC", and the convention is to have other words in lower case unless it is a proper noun.

On the kennel club articles, I think the title you used is correct. The disambiguation article at "Kennel Club" refers to the organisation titles (and so properly capitalised) while your new article refers to the concept of kennel clubs. So if we are using the word as a title we capitalise both words: "This was agreed by the Kennel Club in 1872". And if the general concept then we don't: "Most kennel clubs are privately funded". But, in the first example we would always be better to link to the specific club article anyway. So it seems easier to make "Kennel Club" into a redirect to "Kennel club". So I've done so. Sorry to be so long-winded bout it though :) -- sannse (talk) 12:37, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Sannse. Long-winded? Not a bit of it; take your time, I need it.... Quill 09:11, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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dog trouble

Hi all--Wikipedia is behaving very strangely for me today.

For one thing, kennel club keeps taking me into the edit this page rather than the article.

I tried to add two new articles, and for some reason the system wasn't letting me do it; now 'my contributions' looks like I've added the same article three times.

Do you see articles on conformation point and fault (dog)? I've also got one on breed standard but for now I'm giving up in frustration.

Thanks--Quill 00:39, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You must not have made your offerings to the proper wiki gods this morning! Indeed, I get articles for kennel club, conformationpoint, and fault (dog).Elf | Talk 03:52, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sigh--The Gods Must be CRAZY!! Quill 22:08, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hey! I didn't link that title (above)--how did that happen?? This is getting Twilight Zone-ish!! Quill 23:22, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Collection of dog photos

Someone started, and I've been adding to, a page with all free-distribution (e.g., GFDL), public domain, etc. dog photos: Wikipedia:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs. I added the photos that User:Sannse and [[User:Elf|I] took and have been working my way through all of the breed articles, slowly, checking the photos to see whether they're GFDL or similar and then either adding them to the photo album page or attempting to contact the contributor and leaving a note on the album's talk page.

This is just a request that, if you see anyone add a dog photo, to check whether its source and copyright/license status are identified; if not, attempt to contact the user (nicely) to get the info; and if it is free distr/public, add it to the album page? Or at least let me know that it's there so I can follow up. Hopefully I'll see any photos that are added because all the breed pages are on my watchlist, but ya never know. Thanks! Elf | Talk 00:11, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Requested_pictures#Dog_breeds.

Schnauzer naming

Please give your thoughts on the Talk:Schnauzer page. Thanks. Elf | Talk 02:05, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Veterinarians

I just added a couple of stubs to the List of dog topics, plus linked James Herriot. Is this all right with everyone? Quill 01:44, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Show dogs and dog shows

Found articles on Crufts and (misnamed/misdescribed but now fixed) Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. Created a stub for show dog because was on Wikipedia:Most wanted articles list. Those of you with interest/knowledge in these areas, have at. Elf | Talk 07:34, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Category subproject page

I have created a subproject page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories to discuss the ongoing categorization of dog-related articles. Please take a look and throw in your two bits on its talk page. Thanks. (And you might want to add it to your watchlist; I don't think subpages go there automagically.) Elf | Talk 03:55, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

you guys might be interested...

I happened upon this page while working on recategorizing cat-related pages (there wasn't much organization, and it's proving to be quite a task). Wikipedia:Wikipedians_by_pet I just thought some of you might want to take a look. [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 18:01, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No fooling! That's why I left a zillion messages on all the talk pages of places where cat-interested people might notice them, referring to my discussion on organization. It's taking me many hours just to work my way slowly through all the dog articles! Thanks for the new pointer. Elf | Talk

You should check out Category:Cats and Category:Felines. I've done a lot of work on this stuff today. It makes me wonder if dog-people aren't a bit more fanatical about their pets than cat-people, considering how much thought and work is being put into the dog categories, and the lack thereof in the cats'... [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 19:55, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wouldn't surprise me--after all, dog people tend to be very involved in their dogs' lives & activities & vice-versa. Cats? They just hang out--  ;-) You *have* done a lot of category work! Good job. Elf | Talk 20:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yo! Lay off cats!  ;)

Actually, I think it's because of the difference of time in the development of dog fancy (much older) and cat fancy. Many more dog breeds and dog organizations, many more purebred dogs are pets than purebred cats, etc. Certainly, the difference in dog-human vs. cat-human interaction plays a large part as well (cat flyball races??!!)

I came across a person asking questions on categorization (no puns!) on one of the Cat talk pages (Lord knows where) and I recommended that s/he get in touch with Sannse or Elf for help (no, you don't have to thank me  ;) Quill 21:54, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

need support

Category:Cat breeds and Category:Cat types have both been marked for deletion, b/c someone thinks they should be merged. We all know they are two very different things. Could you guys please put in some votes for them not to be? Thanks. Lachatdelarue (talk) 20:39, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(Bad) Shih Tzu picture

When I saw that Shih Tzu didn't have any picture, I took a picture of my pet Shih Tzu and uploaded it to wikipedia, Image:Shih Tzu.JPG. However, it's not a very good picture at all quality-wise, the dog isn't standing, it was taken in my living room, the picture needs to be shrunk (its 2048x1536) and my Shih Tzu recently had a haircut so she doesn't have the long hair look Shih Tzus are supposed to. But, if you want to put it in the Shih Tzu article go ahead, I released it into the Public Domain, I just didn't want to put it in without consulting somebody due to it's many flaws. If you think something is better than nothing though, you got your wish :) p.s. I will try to get a better picture up but we'll see... - biggins | talk 22:48, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and edit the picture some, and re-upload it over the original image (if that's ok) and put it in the Shih Tzu article... still haven't decided if I will put it in the breed table or not.... Lachatdelarue (talk) 23:08, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If you're talking about Wikipedia:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs, all free-distribution dog photos go here whether we use them or not. Any that aren't free (e.g., copyrighted w/no rleease, unlabeled, etc.) go on that page's Talk page with an explanation. It's the only way of keeping track of all dog photos. I just added the current shih tzu photo; if you upload over it, of course it will automatically redraw once you refresh the screen or clear your cache. Or kick the computer and spill coke down its motherboard, whatever it takes. Elf | Talk 23:21, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I uploading the image under a different file name, and added it to the Shih Tzu's breed table, with a caption saying that it had a "summer-friendly haircut". Lachatdelarue (talk) 23:35, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dog article

The dog article is currently 37Kb, exceeding the suggested 32Kb limit for articles. I'm thinking we should split off one or more of the longer sections into their own articles, with a briefer description on the main article. The one section I'm thinking of is attributes. This would be fairly easy to split off. If no one objects, I'd be willing to do it. Let me know. Lachatdelarue (talk) 22:48, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We need to leave a good hunk of description of what a dog looks like & how it's built and why in the main article. I could see chomping off maybe Dog coat? Dog ear? Maybe even some of the details into Dog social skills (or a better title than that)? Coat especially, because I was thinking in terms of a table, with columns for the term, the definition, example breeds, and a close-up photo-- (ditto for ears, tails). Elf | Talk 02:06, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you're both right. It needs to be a thoughtful choice. That's a problem running through the article: the seemingly arbitrary attention to detail in some areas. There's a good reason for that, of course: everyone writes about what they know. What I'm saying, though, is that we need an objective decision about section type and length. i.e., why cut 'coat' but leave 'diseases and ailments' or 'interaction with humans'? Elf spoke before of a separate dog health article, e.g. Am I making sense? I'm not suggesting that cuts not be done, but that it's time for some serious thought as to WHICH cuts and WHY...Quill

Oh, my, *serious* thought? I'll have to put the screws to my brain and see whether it survives. Or else I'll go pull some weeds. Elf | Talk 23:52, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

linking to Wikipedias in other languages

• Dear friends, Category:Dog breeds and List of dog breeds contains now links to Wikipedias in other languages. It was diffucult for me to pay attention
  • not to link a list from one language to a categry of another language;
  • find "island (isolated)" articles / stubs in some languages to insert links to existing "chains" of articles;
  • not to link to a {{disambiguation}};
• I looked at some of the lists and could find some of such isolated articles. Not all lists are checked so far because of lack of time. I got some help from Japan too. Maybe it would be a good idea to find people interested in dog breeding trough the Wikipedia:Embassy as well in order to involve more people in the project, to compare (, add ...) informations between languages, find a requested picture and so on. Regards Gangleri 01:45, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

I must admit that you started me thinking, and last week I spent a few hours in the French wikipedia trying to straighten out Dog (Chien) and any dog-related articles I could find--not many at all, really. You're right, it will really take people familiar with dogs in the other languages to get that going; there are a couple of breeds posted there that I have no idea what the English version is, and also I wonder whether, for example, "Flatcoated Retriever" is in fact what the French call that breed (although it might well be, since we call many breeds by non-English names). Anyway, it was interesting and I might go back again with my VERY limited vocabulary--mostly formatting, organizing, and adding interlanguage links, as I can't really write or edit the content. Elf | Talk 04:57, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Halló Elf! I have seen the list at fr:Liste des races de chiens. Great job! It is linked now to the whole list chain. Hope to get some feedback from contributors to those and other languages. Regards Gangleri 02:31, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)

Pretty exciting, huh? It needs a lot more "frenchification"; I can find French breed names on the FCI list for many breeds, but the challenge is that I don't know by what name they're most commonly called by French dog fanciers--for example, there are a lot of breeds with perfectly fine English names but that most English-speaking dog people still refer to using their native names in another language. So I'll try to tackle some more of it eventually, but it might still be out of line. We don't always even get the English list correct! (Plus my french is so miserably awful that I don't dare try to write any actual sentences.) Elf | Talk 04:00, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

linking to Wikipedias in other languages 2

• At the moment Category:Dog breeds links to a dozen of categories in other languages and List of dog breeds to about 10 other lists. For the upcomming languages I linked all available articles. What I learned from this:
  • In the Japanease list the Dingo was listed as well. The category structure in other languages does not match en.wikipedia. The Dingo articles have been in different categories at the respective languages.
  • With some help it should be possible to build equivalents to Category:Canines, Category:Dogs, Category:Dog types (and maybe some others) too. Category:Pets and Category:Domesticated animals should be available too.

---

• At the moment the articles show (only) the FCI group and section. It would be a great, great help if the FCI number would be there too.
• Talk:Italian Greyhound shows a section Talk:Italian Greyhound#InterWiki's and links. I would go trough the FCI list and look for thouse links. They should be at the articles and will help to grow the number of French and Spanish dog articles. Maybe the FCI webmasters would add HTML Label names / Anchors to the site in order to reference it easier.
• For each dog people from the Wikipedias related to the concerning country could / should be contacted in order to have articeles these languages too. In Italian for the Italian Greyhound and so on.

---

• Maybe we should write a few words about Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds (as a template?), let it translate to additional languages and place it in the Village pumps - Cafés (or appropriate places as Projects), at the top of the available categories, lists and so on. Regards Gangleri 19:15, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)

I doubt that would be viewed well in general (if I understand what you are proposing)- imagine if every Wikiproject spamed all the village pumps in this way -- sannse (talk) 19:46, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is still the oportunity to contact embassies linked to Wikipedia:Embassy or administrators at other Wikipedias to find initial atricles. At one of the nordic wikipedias I have seen an omnibus (made with a template) guiding you from one article of that subject to another. It was impressive. I need to find it ... Regards Gangleri 22:51, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)

An example of Minibus navugation is shown at da:Pattedyr. Gangleri 00:50, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

---

Avoiding spaming: With minimal effort a template can be inserted in the user pages at en.wikipedia and at other languages too. (Note: To my knowledge templates can not be shared between languages, they have to be rebuild every time.) If you look at User:Gangleri/templates/accounts you can see where I am walking around. Wenn I edit in other languages I insert allways [[:en:User:Gangleri]] ... in the Edit summary: field. Then edits are not anonimuos and people can contact me if they have questions. This brings them to the user page where the project / the projects are mentioned. Gangleri 12:46, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)

ambiguous InterWiki links

• Soemtimes it is complicated:
  • nl:Cocker spaniel is (was) not linked at all.
  • en:American Cocker Spaniel (in category breed) is linked to de:Amerikanischer Cocker Spaniel
  • The Disambiguation en:Cocker Spaniel (in both categories breeds and types) was linked to de:English Cocker Spaniel. Last was linked to en:English Cocker Spaniel. en:English Cocker Spaniel was not linked at all.
  • de:Cocker Spaniel is actualy a REDIRECT to de:English Cocker Spaniel. Will be fixed. Gangleri 00:19, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

List of dog breeds

• Dear friends, I want to attract your attention about the German equivalent for List of dog breeds de:Liste der Hunderassen. Sorry that I did not pay enough attention to this important information so far.
• The lists begins with an explanation about the notes used beside the breed names:
  • Erklärung: "Rasse" (a/b/c)(B)
  • Explanation: "Breed" (a/b/c)(P) where a = group / b = section / c = number / P article with picture.
• The list shows alternative names too and it should be possible to see if all redirects are available.
• It is mentioned at the Talk page that this is the only way to have an unique identification for the breeds.

---

• Before reworking the page please let me explore
  • the impact of multiple redirects (from article a to article b to article c ...) to visitors of the Wikipedia sites.
  • how notes to non FCI breeds as Elo are made. Regards Gangleri 01:34, 2004 Oct 9 (UTC)

;-) Gangleri 02:37, 2004 Oct 9 (UTC)

I don't agree that we should match our page to this format. The information on the FCI breed categories is only part of the important category/group information needed. In the context of an English language encyclopaedia the groupings chosen by the various breed associations outside of the FCI are just as important (the Kennel Club (UK) and the US kennel clubs are not FCI affiliated remember). It would not be possible or appropriate to add the information on all breed associations to this list, and this information is better left in the articles.

I also prefer our format for handling alternative names. Listing them within the body of the list, unlinked but with a "see [[article]]" helps a reader to find the article they are looking for with ease. We have a lot of these alternative names missing at the moment - but the most important ones are being added as we go along. This is particularly important where different English speaking countries have different names for the same breed (American Cocker Spaniel is the example that springs to mind). There is never just one way to format an article, and what works for one language doesn't always work for another. I think in this case we should not make major changes to a format that works well for us. Regards -- sannse (talk) 20:07, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

p.s. multiple redirects go only to the first link. So if [[article 1]] redirects to [[article 2]] which redirects to [[article 3]] - then clicking a link to 1 will take you to 2, and the redirect at 2 will do nothing. Hope that makes sense :) -- sannse (talk)

fr:Liste des races de chiens

• Regarding fr:Liste des races de chiens I just realised an issue common to many xx.wikipedia. See also fr:Discuter:Liste des races de chiens.
  • First is that some in xx.wikipedia races are referenced without capitals (or with postponed definitic articles as in Icelandic). Please see history to see the change(s). Who should make / verify the existens of all REDIRECT's for existing articles?
  • Another question is what form to use for disambiguations? Should Alsatian (referenced as [[Alsatian (chien)|Alsatian]]) be used or Alsatian (chien)? Regards Gangleri 19:02, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)
• P.S.: What about people not familiar with the differences to capital use writing Dog Breed or Dog Breeds? Gangleri 19:46, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

• Questions about foreign-language wikis are best asked on that language, not here; I am not familiar enough with the language & culture in general nor with the dog-related language and culture to be able to provide any useful input on something like whether the breed names (breed = race in French) should be capitalized. Likewise, calls for help (such as adding REDIRECTs in the fr wiki) should go in the language wiki, not here.
• I'm not quite sure what you mean by "postponed definite articles" even after rereading your earlier post at Talk:Icelandic Sheepdog. Again, this looks like a foreign-language issue, not an English issue. The use of articles in English is confusing enough without asking whether the Icelandic language uses articles in the same way. (E.g., British English apprently uses "go to hospital" but American English uses "go to the hospital"... although in most places their uses of articles is the same.)
• In most places, we want the text to look like part of the normal reading language and not like a more complex markup. For example, on the List of dog breeds page, we use [[Chihuahua (dog)|Chihuahua]]. It's not always done that way, though, for various reasons. In Chihuahua (disambiguation), all of the disambig items just use the [[Chihuahua (dog)]] form because that way it's clear that they're all different articles--but one other way to make the differences clear would be something like [[Chihuahua (dog)|Chihuahua dog]], which is how it's done in Bobcat (disambiguation); yet many disambigs completely hide the disambig'ing part, as in Brittany (disambiguation) where "Brittany" is the linked text in each definiton. (There are better examples of the latter somewhere because I know, I've worked on some, but I can't find 'em at the moment.)
• Redirecting all forms of plurals and capitalizations... It might be a good idea to have a redirect for the plural of common terms (as there is for Dogs). When I put in a new breed, I usually check to see whether upper & lowercase versions of the breed name typed in the search box bring up the new page and then decide whether to make appropriate redirects. I don't think that we need redirects for common english terms or phrases, which are pretty much never capitalized (as in "dog breed"); we'd have to have redirs for every entry in wikipedia, which I don't think makes much sense. I don't think that most users will capitalize common English words.

Elf | Talk 21:21, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. What I was traying to say is that in Romanian, Iclandic and some other languages you would not say "the dog" or "those races", you will say somthing like "dogthe" and "racesthose". I have also seen that "Wikipedia articles" are used together with "gramatical articles". I found "sagasthe" and so on. But this is up to the decision of the other Wikipedias. It is only important to know this, if you search the "Wikipedia articles" equivalents in order to find them faster. Regards Gangleri 02:55, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)

JRTs and Dogs Actor Conventions and Stuff

Someone has recently edited the Jack Russell Terrier article, leading to some questions:

1. What are the numbers and & for? What do they do?
2. What is our convention for dog actors? What I mean is, do we write

• Eddie, played by Moose, in the sitcom Frasier
• Eddie, played by Moose, in the....
• "Eddie", played by Moose,...
• "Eddie", played by "Moose"...
• Eddie, played by Moose

etc., etc, and repeated for Lassie, Rex, Maximillian, Wishbone, Asta and a whole lotta dogs I love

Quill 00:03, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1. The &numbers; are unicode. Usually they are deliberate, such as the Chinese characters at the beginning of the Shih Tzu article, but they also sometimes appear as a browser foible when someone doesn't use plain text (for example, if they paste from Word and the text contains "smart quotes"). Personally - I usually remove them in this case and replace with the equivalent standard character. They just make the text more difficult to read during editing IMO (that's also the suggestion in the Manual of Style).
2. I would say:

• Eddie, played by Moose, in the sitcom Frasier

The Manual of Style says that TV program names should be in italics so that bit's clear. We don't use any special formatting for human actors names or their characters, so I don't think we need to for animals. I'll go ahead and make these changes in the article - let me know if you disagree anyone (or just revert me of course :) -- sannse (talk) 10:04, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

reorganisation

• What about moving General Strategy and Discussion forum to the top or making it like Template:Villagepumppages from Wikipedia:Village pump?
  • /General talk
  • /Strategy talk
  • /Categories talk
  • /International talk
  • /Templates talk
  • It will be very difficult to wath so many pages. A content would help. For example it is every time hard for me to find the participants list because I normaly use talk pages only.
  • /Needs verification talk in order to have an central place to report issues
  • /Project map talk similar to a site map at homepages (maybe combined with a project status)
    • Note: I linked before many different articles as Cynology, FCI, ... Normaly I do not look at other categories then dog breeds of the project. At some point in time someone should care about this articles as well.
  • todos, open issues, ...

votes?

• • requested translations, requested pictures, ...
• It should be easyly to find a place for input from other languages. Example: nl:Stabyhoun is available with a picture and linked to de:Stabyhound. It is missing in en.wikipedia. Same would apply with special local breeds from Japan etc.
• For newcomers it should be transparent who is skilled about what. Some have large knowledge about many of the pages of the project. How many are actualy so far? Others can just take care of technical issues (see below), some have sysop rights and so on.

Project follows standard strategy for WikiProjects. We can add additional subcategories under General Strategy, like we added /Categories; for example, you could certainly add a /Languages subtopic. Think of the project pages as being like articles: they're supposed to represent what we do or what we know; the talk pages for each are where we're supposed to develop ideas about what we do or how. For example, the /Categories page should state what we DO do about categories--that is, agreed-upon strategies (although it was originally phrased as "hey, how about this?"); its talk page should be where people say, um, no, that's not right, I think we do abc--or I think we should do xyz, and then we discuss it, and then when consensus occurs, it goes ontothe /Categories page.

Certainly we could add descriptions to each of the links for the subtopics on the main project page. I'll do that now...

Oh, wow, I see what you mean. These pages are rife with discussion when they shouldn't be. Maybe they need some cleanup. Maybe I'll do that. Argh.

Elf | Talk 00:55, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• • /Sister projects talk as the work of user de:Caronna at de:, pl:AndrzejzHelu at pl:, startup help provided Dogfather at it:, es:, Elf at fr: ... My opinion is that working on the other Wikipedias is not a waste of time but an improuvment both to the knowledge about, diversity and quality of articles and contributions. Gangleri 12:29, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)
  • P.S.: The availability of local templates can be mentioned here. Gangleri 12:52, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)

• • /What's new talk to have a central place of the "headers" of new topics ...

I've just started rearranging the material. Lots more to go. I hope it's getting clearer as I go. Elf | Talk 06:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Have finally moved template-related stuff from this page & talk page to /Templates subpage. Elf | Talk 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

---

moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dog_breeds/Categories#WDP feature request: *I think we should start a feature request about displaying the content of a category in the same manner as "My contributions". I mean as a list with newest changes displayed first. It should be possible also to display the content of (some) special pages (as categories and so on) with a Startig from and Until input mask. This would save both database resources and user resources as well. What is your opinion about this? Regards Gangleri 05:25, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

Bichons

While making a minor edit to the Bichon Frise article, I noticed that the interwiki link to fi was actually for the Havanese, so I moved it over to that article. Then I decided to take a look at the foreign language article. The picture over there of a "bichon havannese" looks more like a Coton de Tulear to me. Does anyone understand any of this language (I don't even know what it is)? And is that a Havanese, or a Coton? [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue (talk)]] 12:52, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have e-mailed user fi:Käyttäjä:Ljeskola (found in the history of that article). It seams, that he / she has not made recent contributions and hope that the e-mail address is still valid and he / she understands English.

fi:Käyttäjä:Jean d'Arc making the categories added the links to fi:. I appologise, that I have not verified the links. Now both all links to Havanese and all links to Bichon Frisé are adjusted. Regards Gangleri 02:47, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

is: List of dog breeds

• Dear friends, I made an equivalent for the List of dog breeds in Icelandic. At the moment (03:12, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)) it exists as a draft at is:Notandi:Gangleri/drafts/list of dog breeds.
• As has be seen in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds#Bichons example errors can occur and I would like to reformat some of the lists to include additional information.
• To my oppinion there would be a greather help if beside the name of the breed in the language of that Wikipedia, the original (if available) should be mentioned as well together with the indication of the FCI catalogisation because it is used both in different countries and by different alphabets.
• The indication (P) picture would help editors to identify articles with pictures more easy.
• The indication about the talk page could show that information, as links to breeding standards, kennel clubs etc., ISBN's and so on are available already.
• I would be happy if I am allowed to insert to the English articles beside the Group and Section also the number. For Basset Hound it would be: Group 6 Section 1.3 (not only 1) N°163.
• Please let me know your opinion about this because I would like to rework the lists in the ofiicial languages of FCI: fr:, en:, de:, es: . Doing this I would like to put the links to existing FCI breeding standards to the talk pages. Regards Gangleri 03:12, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

• Mixed feelings about including all possible language variants of a breed's name on the breed's page in Alternative Names. Since this is an English wiki, having the names used (and spelled) by English speakers makes the most sense. Although I see that sometimes for example Chinese character representations of dog names are appearing in some articles. I haven' t been removing those even though those are *clearly* not from english-speaking dog people! But I don't think you can say "use the original name" because there are going to be disputes about what the "original" name was, especially when the breed is older & is hard to pinpoint to a specific location. So it would be hard to draw the line as to where to stop listing alternative names. Maybe we shouldn't even try to--and just list all variants that we come across anyway. I dunno.
• But if you're talking about doing stuff like this on List of dog breeds:

• Afganhundur _ (Afghan Hound) (FCI 10/1/228) (M) Afghanistan

Uh-uh, I don't like it, it's way too cluttered. The FCI # and other club designators are on the breed pages, as is the likely country of origin. And it would be impossible to decide which alternative breed names to list here. Reader should be able to simply scan for the name of the breed they're looking for in a vertical list, not wade through all that extra info. That's why we've got alternative names often listed in the proper alphabetical place in the list (e.g., Alsation and German Shepher Dog). Maybe if it was in a table so it was easier to ignore the extra stuff...but then you're maintaining all of that data *twice*, onece on the breed page & once on the list. I don't much like that idea--everything we already have it a lot of work.

In any event, our main target audience is *not* you and me who are editors and trying to maintain a lot of complex info--it's the casual user who knows the name of a breed and wants to find out more about it. They probably don't even know what FCI is, let alone a bunch of obscure numbers. I mean, that line looks like gobbledygook to me when I scan it, even thought when I put on my thinking cap and read it slowly I think I can parse what it is that it's trying to say.

• I think that putting the FCI number is fine. Maybe format as:

Group 1 Section 1.3 #294 (let's not use any weird/special characters like you used for No).

• I'm still having trouble understanding why an article would link to the talk page--talk page isn't part of the article name space, it's for discussions about the article. And the FCI links should link to the breed standards, as they do now, not to some other location within wikipedia, IMHO. But maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're asking.
• I'm not sure about a picture indicator. You're saying put something like:

• Affenpinscher (P)
• Afghan Hound (P)
• Aidi

? I'm not convinced. I don't think "P" would be the right thing--it's too nebulous an indicator. ("What the heck does 'P' mean anyway, Marsha?") But I don't know what else could be used. They could always just go to the Wikipedia:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs to see what images exist.

Elf | Talk 05:35, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed answer. I realised that the the de:, da:, is: maight be overloaded with information. It is hard to have a balance between all the different needs. I also tray to find out what could be learned from the dog breed project for other Wikipedias and what information would be helpfull for English visitors for example in an Italian, Spanish and so on Wikipedia. I started two weeks ago with non latin Wikipedias as Japanease and Hebrew. Belive me it is tricky to realise that articles about Griffin, Boxer, Pointer, Afgan are only disambiguations and to pay attention that you see a redirect from an old list and to fix it.

Listening to many / all alternative names for any of the Wikipedias is not a good idea either. But I think it would be a great help to recognise somthing in a foreign list, also for visitors from outside en.wikipedia. I know only two Finnish words and would be lost without help. Listening the FCI name is a help which is there without beeng forced to ask sombody or to open tens of articles. This is why the is: list shows the original FCI names when for the main aricle an Icelandic word is used as Bendir for Pointer.

At de: we are thinking to show also the disambiguations as Chihuahua (dog). It is up to the visitor to choose what he wants to see.

(P) from picture was introduced by user de:Caronna to track his own work over two months. It is / was only an indication and these schould be used carefully. If only 20 pictures are missing it is fine to have a known central place to list them and to strike those solved in common. But again information should be found quickly without opening the list with all pictures and search there.

The indication to the talk page is olso a working help intended for the other Wikipedias. I do not know any efficient way to have an overview about talks for 200 articles. This is difficult to remember and if you make a two, three day brake you will probably not know where to start.

Group 1 Section 1.3 #294 . Thanks! Can we abbreviate it in some way?

A final remark: The list (the lists if we think about a list by countries) can not compete with database implementations as done on many dog breed sites. To find a compromise beteween simple enumerations and sofisticated representations is not easy and I am convinced that we can agree on some basic roles. It would be nice to have these basic features in the in other Wikipedia lists to. This only preserves the common look and feel of the Wikipedias. Regards Gangleri 10:42, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

I agree with Elf on all this. To be more specific:

• I don't think we need to add all the information about image availability, FCI category and so on - that's what the articles are for. The dog breed list should be as simple and as useable for the reader as possible.
• As Elf says, the talk pages are simply for discussing aspects of the articles as needed, they not part of the article and shouldn't be linked to from the article (except as the usual link) or from the main breed list.
• I am not sure if the suggestion for adding the FCI number is to the individual articles or to the dog breeds list - if it's to the articles, then I think that's a good idea.

The important thing to remember, as Elf says, is that we are writing for our readers - not for people making interwiki links. I think cooperation between Wikipedias is important, so I don't want to discourage you, but each is also an individual encyclopaedia - which shouldn't try to be exactly the same (articles are not usually direct translations of each other for example, although sometimes that's a good starting point). Perhaps one way of gathering the information you are looking for is to make a page in your user space or on a sub page of the wikiproject and keep a list there. You could link to it from this talk page and from the talk page of the list of dog breeds - perhaps right at the top so it doesn't get lost in the conversation. -- sannse (talk) 19:56, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I want to make clear that I meant that I felt that the FCI number could go in the breed table, not on the list of dog breeds page. Elf | Talk 20:46, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Another thing--you said you were considering doing disambigs like this: Chihuahua (dog)--I find that *very* confusing. If we're talking about a dog, I'd expect Chihuaha to go to the chihuahua-the-dog link; if "dog" were a separate word, I'd expect it to go to the "dog" article. I would never, ever expect to go to the city in Mexico in that context. If you really want to let them go to the city or the breed, the reader will likely be much less confused with "Chihuahua (city) or Chihuahua (dog)". Elf | Talk 21:44, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Anchors

• I would like to let you know about the usage of anchors (Wikipedia:Hyperlink) as explained in meta:Help:Link#Linking to a page. I added <div id="Contents"></div> at the top. Please tray and click at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds#Contents. Regards Gangleri 03:17, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

This is probably better than linking by subsection name, because if an editor changes the subsection name (which often happens) then the link just goes back to the top of the article, whereas having an explicit link name coded in place would more likely ensure that the link remains good. But I don't know how often we really want to be linking to things that aren't subhead-level. Elf | Talk 05:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

• An example of a greather list is available at is:Notandi:Gangleri/test/Snið:Flokkatré. This list is showing the three of Icelandic categories. Please look also at the notes starting from Notandaspjall:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason#comments regarding Snið:Flokkatré to User talk:Patrick#Anchor Wikipedia:Hyperlink. Regards Gangleri 09:43, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)

New dog care wikibook

Much to my horror (because of how much time I already spend in wikiP ;-) ), there is a new Wikibook: Dog care. I filled in the article on obesity and used a couple of my & sannse's breed photos as good examples--now we need examples of pathetic overweight dogs (none every show up at my agility trials, so I'll have to sneak up on my unsuspecting friends' dogs)! Elf | Talk 18:34, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm pathetically overweight. Perhaps I could photoshop a dog's head on my body. Imagine this man were a dog. Don't do this.The Dogfather 22:15, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Now *that* idea is pathetic. :-) Elf | Talk 01:30, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ha, ha, ha! That is funny! On a serious note, I have never explored Wikibooks and I'm staying right away, I spend too much time here as it is. Quill 02:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Janus lists of dog breeds

• Dear friends, please take a look at both User:Gangleri/tests/list and User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance).
• It was tricky to make this Janus list as you can read at User talk:Patrick#Janus article.
• I invested so much efforts on this issue because I beleive, that information is spread over to many places. There is no immediate need to implement it because a template can be used in actual Wikimedia version only for times in an article. However this will change with version 1.4. Regards Gangleri 12:24, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)

• • Interesting. What we really would want in an ideal world is something like the little arrows or plus/minus signs next to lists in more robust user interfaces (such as Windows or Mac OS) where you click on it and it provides an expanded view of the thing you're looking at and click again to rehide the detail. We're not asking for a lot--  ;-) Elf | Talk 16:42, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

• For different participants in a project beside the "normal" list User:Gangleri/tests/list alternave maintenance lists can be defined easyly:
  • User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance) (based on common consensus)
  • User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance g) (very complex). Please note that only the third line (refering to Pug) provides full functionality and that the list (with more then four entries) can be implemented only starting with version 1.4. Bugzilla:839 ralates to it. Regards Gangleri 09:34, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)

You're not kidding ' very complex'! My brain couldn't take that second list all in. Quill 20:56, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

• User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance) IMSoP is getting closer to my ideas about a 'complex' maintenance list. Descrtiption:
  • "h" = History
  • "l" = What links here
  • "r" = Related changes
  • "e" = Edit
  • "T" = Talk
  • "c" = Purges the cache while reloading the page. This allows updating of the page without changing / editing it. You can use "action=purge" if you change a template or if you define a category used in some pages (articles, categiries ...) without having the category defined. Normaly the link to that category would show in read unless you edit the article / the articles again.
• Hope that this descrtiption helps. (I could not find a better word for de:Legende (Karte).)
• Because the "appropriate" google links would not work anyway, I placed some sample links at the top of the list. Normaly I have up to 15 Internet Explorer windows open. One for the list, one for Google, some for the articles I link together, some for my "stack", one navigation file from my local PC and so on. Regards Gangleri 01:35, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Shortcut for this project

• Halló! I posted a question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject#Wikipedia:Shortcuts for projects.
• What would be the most suitable shortcut?
• WP:WPbreeds is misleading because cats, horses etc. are breeds as well. What about WP:WPdogs? Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri | T | Th]] 02:08, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

"WP:WPdogs" sounds good to me -- sannse (talk) 12:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

yeppers--me too Quill 00:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ditto. Elf | Talk 00:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am happy about your answers and posted User talk:Ram-Man#Shortcuts for WikiProjects. Regards Gangleri | Th | T 16:27, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)

Quality Control transitioning quickly into Poodle hybrids discussion

Moved to Talk:Poodle hybrid. Elf | Talk 05:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

New breed registry article

I started this article. I'm not a real expert on this subject, so any corrections & additional information would be very helpful. Go to it! Elf | Talk 20:48, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Missing Images

Er...do we really need that gigantic blue template that FirstPrinciples has felt the need to go adding to several dog TALK pages? Quill 21:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My question is: has there really been a request for more poodle pictures? And who is requesting them?The Dogfather 03:04, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Made no sense and I deleted it. Quill 22:19, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yup, I've been trying to keep up the whole dog-breed-photo-project thing by listing breeds with articles but no photos at Wikipedia:Requested_pictures#Dog_breeds. I'm not doing the best job in the world at keeping that list up to date, but there ya go. The give-me-a-photo box is an interesting addition; I don't think it's a bad idea, given that less-experienced folks might not know that we're looking for photos and that most people in the known universe don't happen upon the Requested Pictures article. As long as it's on the talk page, it doesn't bother me. Elf | Talk 23:50, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pooter

(Moved to Talk:Poodle hybrid.) Elf | Talk 05:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

AKC messes us up

They've gone and done it--rearranged their web site. All of the links in all of the breed tables to the breed standards will now return page-not-found errors. Time to restart them all; [1] is probably the best place to start and then either click Complete Breed List in the left menu or click "FSS" in the main part of the page for the not-yet-recognized breeds. Auggggghhhh! Elf | Talk 02:50, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Anyone know someone who could write a robot to go thru the breeds in List of dog breeds and change the AKC links; e.g., old ones are http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/keeshon.cfm or http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/labdoret.cfm; new ones are like http://www.akc.org/breeds/keeshond/index.cfm or http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/index.cfm. I wonder whether one could extrapolate? Elf | Talk 03:25, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Can't help I'm afraid; I'm a pooh-bear of no brain at all. I saw the new AKC site and didn't even realize this would happen! A robot is like the thing in Lost in Space that says 'Danger Will Robinson!', right? Quill 20:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have gone through all of the "A"s in List of dog breeds. Fixing not only AKC links, but also:

• Checking heading fmts
• Checking links (e.g., making sure there's at least one link in each article to dog or dog breed!)
• Changing {{stub}} or {{msg:stub}} to {{animal-stub}}
• If there's no photo, adding it to Wikipedia:Requested_pictures#Dog_breeds and putting {{reqimage}} on its talk page
• Lots of other stuff to clean up always!

Elf | Talk 18:52, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Breeder

So, like when you get a moment (ha, ha) can you take a look at Talk:breeder and its article and tell me if I had a good point or not? Quill 11:10, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Looked. See my note there. Elf | Talk 19:04, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to say that I say it. Thanks! Quill 06:12, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

White Shepherds?

Moved discussion on whether White Shepherd Dog is a separate breed to Talk:Berger Blanc Suisse. Discussion also covers briefly the general topic of what makes a breed--for Wikipedia and in general--using poodles and cocker spaniels as additional examples. Elf | Talk 21:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pooter (yes, again!)

(Moved to Talk:Poodle hybrid.) Elf | Talk 05:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Naming dog articles

I've been meaning to ask: I've subtitled the articles I've done on dog actors like this: Moose (dog actor). Do people like this or should it be "canine actor" or "dog performer" or anything else? Quill 21:36, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I like what you've used. Canine is really not specific to dogs. And I think a "performer" would be one who worked in, say, a circus. Elf | Talk 22:14, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Westminster and German Shorthaired Pointer

I spent hours expanding Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show and German Shorthaired Pointer so that I could point to them from current events (now). Please review--and espeically for those more familiar with linking various dog-show articles, which I'm not as familiar with. Thanks! Elf | Talk 19:48, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Categories, How to find the subcategory, Navigation templates of a category

• Dear friends, It is long atime since my last contribution here. I made some documentation regarding "How to find the subcategory" and things related to this. You may start at en:User talk:Patrick#How to find the subcategory a long way through sr:, ro:.
• ro:Template:TOCcat could be used (in a modified version taking better advantage of MediaWiki variables and syntax) also at Category:Dog breeds. sr:????????:Bonzo has just organised the articles about the dog breed category sr:Category:???? ????. Please take a look.
• During last time I was mainly at test:, ro: and eo:. Best regards and wishes Gangleri | Th | T 02:52, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

OK, I think I'm missing something, but I couldn't figure out most of this:

• How to find the subcategory, I can't find anything in English anywhere and I tried following several links.
• If you're suggesting using TOCcat in the English Category:Dog breeds, I think that would be fine although I'm not sure what's involved.
• Organizing articles, I can't find anything in english under the links you list here so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to look at; the organization still looks like it's organized alphabetically, so I'm unclear on what was actually done.

Sorry I can't figure this out. :-( Elf | Talk 04:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I need to answer later with specific details for Category:Dog breeds.
• However the "problems" are reported at bugzilla:1211, bugzilla:1212, possibly also other bug id's. Regards Gangleri | Th | T 18:23, 2005 Feb 27 (UTC)

hu:Kategória:Románia települései (places in Romania) includes more then 200 titles (articles and many subcategories). Before you could see the subcategories only at the correspondig letters. Subcategories use now [[Category:XXXX|(space)]] or [[Category:XXXX|(space)YYYY]] and you can see them all at "the main category page".
At en:Category:Norse mythology all the subcategories shows now properly too.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories does not mention any subcategory of Category:Dog breeds. So no actions are required here Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 14:06, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

P.S. I inserted Template:CatAZ because I thing there is no need for Template:CategoryTOC. 14:20, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

Police dogs external links

I have removed external links from Police dog article. See Talk:Police dog and if you'd like to express an opinion, please do. I think that one of the 2 is seriously biased and the other is in fact a commercial site although it also has info on it. Elf | Talk 02:14, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

New project to-do list

In case y'all didn't notice, there's now a project to-do list Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/To do; I've been keeping this list on my user page but I just seem to be getting farther behind, so I've generously decided to share! Aren't I a nice person? So go there, put it on your watchlist--and feel free to add to it if you notice other similar discrepancies that you don't have time or inclination to attack. Elf | Talk 21:26, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ouch! Ouch! (reacting to cracking of Elf's whip). Okay, Okay...I'm going. Thanks for sharing! Quill 22:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Proposals on article outline consistency and breed table changes

For those who don't have Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/General on their watchlists--go there. Say something. Return to your normally scheduled program. Thanks. :-) Elf | Talk 14:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Move Coat (conformation point)?

I'm thinking of 'moving' this stub because every time I go to link to it, I can't remember where the blasted topic is, which makes me think I didn't choose the best title in the first place.

I'm considering:

• coat (animal)
• coat (dog) - probably not good, because AFAIK this applies to cats and horses as well--probably guinea pigs and rats too, I shouldn't wonder.
• coat (animal fancy)

Or leave as is and simply engage brain before writing.

Comments and suggestions?

Related problem: undercoat is, understandably a disambig page, but undercoat as we would understand it is listed under down hair, not the first description that would spring to my mind. Move? Quill 23:16, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The down hair, awn hair, and some other articles along those lines existed when I first went looking for the appropriate articles. I've never heard of "awn hair" and in fact can't find any references to that term anywhere in my references--perhaps canines don't have awn hairs. I also wouldn't have used "down hair" as the primary article for dogs; I'd have used "undercoat". But, as you say, some of this applies to all animals. Still, I'd be inclined to have something like Coat (dog) and perhaps Coat (animal); if some of the info is repeated, that's fine, but I think there's a lot to say about just dog coats that doesn't apply to other animals. At least, I think of stuff often enough that I then don't know where to put. Then we could have subsections within that article on "Undercoat" and "Topcoat" and whatever else we wanted that's specific to dogs. I have spoken. Elf | Talk 00:24, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

$%%()&^$(*!!!

So I just lost my brand new Best of Breed stub thanks to the browser freezing and boy am I pissed off!!! <end rant>. Meanwhile, I've been doing a lot of work in the (category:dog shows and showing) --I forgot how Sannse does that so it shows up in the text not down below-- so if you guys would check out and edit some of the new titles that would be great! Quill 01:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's happened to me before, too. I've taken to making copies of text I'm wokring on and pasting into an email message (a different program that I always have open so it's conventient) until I'm sure it's saved.

BTW, references to includable objects like categories & images you use the same square-bracket syntax but put a colon after the first brackets, like this: [[:Category:Dog shows and showing]], hence: Category:Dog shows and showing. Elf | Talk 17:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rat Terrier

Hi folks. An anon. user has just added a referance (sic) to the Rat Terrier article. It includes links (internal and external) to Kennel Club Books, which I think is borderline advertising. Let it slide, or VFD? Opinions? And do we let the external link stay in the reference? (The reference looks legit, so does the website, although not brilliantly written.) Quill 23:22, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hope that responding doesn't mess up this page--clicking individual Edit links for subtopics here gives me random stuff that doesn't seem to correspond to the link I clicked. Something's amiss but not sure whether it's in this article or in the database or software. ANYWAY-- For formatting & policy on stuff like this, I often check the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, which has a quick list of useful style links down the side, which takes me to Wikipedia:Cite sources, which says in part: "Cite sources (citation): provide references that help the reader to check the veracity of the article and to find more information. " I've always thought of the references section as being a place from which info in the article came, but this definition is quite clear about *finding more info*. So I think it's OK. (This page also has formatting instructions for References section--and it doesn't seem to spell "copywrite" that way, either ;-). ) Elf | Talk 15:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All-new improved dog categories

I created several new categories related to dogs and sorted most of the stray top-level dog articles into them. Consider whether you know of other articles that might fit into these categories and have at it. In a perfect world, we might be able to get rid of all the articles from the top-level Category:Dogs but I've run out of energy to determine how & whether it's possible & reasonable with the last few articles.

• Category:Dog equipment
• Category:Dog breeding
• Category:Dog anatomy
• Category:Dog monuments

Elf | Talk 20:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Aaargh! More categories?!

"...the last few articles"? [Quill attempts to look innocent.] So what are you saying? My last few offerings cannot be categorized despite all your hard work? Sniff, sob.... Quill 22:52, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is I, causing trouble already. So right away I'm confused. I checked out coat (dog)--are you sure that should be in category:dog anatomy rather than category:dog shows and showing? Or can we simply put things into as many categories as apply? I'm asking because Wikipedists are always arguing about that kind of thing.... Quill 23:00, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) p.s. [wailing] Elf, I tried the colon thing but the link still comes up purple!!

Sorry, just thought of something else. Might as well get it all out, as long as I'm being such a pill. Can we have have a category for doggie folks? Like category:veterinarians and category:dog experts so we can put non-vets somewhere? Can we lowly non-admins make categories? Quill 23:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ahhh, you love categories, admit it. OK, on to some answers:

• By "the last few articles" I mean the ones that remain under the top-level Category:Dogs.
• on Category:dog anatomy--I pondered calling it "dog anatomy and appearance", but that seemed complicated enough that I wasn't sure even *I* would remember it more than a few nanoseconds. Plus I checked some of my dog breed books and they discuss all physical aspects of dogs under headings like "anatomy", so that's where I put everything about structure & appearance. And I think that's where it belongs. Dog shows & showing IMHO should be about things pertaining only or primarily to dog shows. Dog (coat) doesn't, since all dogs have coats and all coats have colors & textures. MAYBE it belongs in both places, but I'm not sure about that--I was pondering removing Cording from the shows category.
• You can put things into as many categories as apply, but try to be rational about it. For example, I removed several things from category Dogs when I moved them into subcategories. On the other hand, some things seem to want to appear in 2 or 3 dog-related categories at least. Just keep adding them thar catg's to the end of the article.
• You seem to have done "the colon thing" properly--they come up in your paragraph as links to the category, which is what you want (vs. making this page become a member of the category).
• Creating a category simply involves putting [[Category:Yournewcategoryname]] in an article and saving it. Poom!, there's a new category. Then you click on that category link at the bottom of your article and add to that new category which category it belongs to in the same way--e.g., all the dog subcategories are members of [[Category:Dogs]]. It helps if you also put in a sentence at the beginning, stating the purpose of the category.
• Doggie folks? How about Category:Dog professions? Hmm, no, that sounds ike the dogs have the professions. Category:Dog professionals? (Seems to me to be too hair-splitting to have one for vets & one for other pros.)

Elf | Talk 05:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I will never admit to loving categories. Dog professions [Quill slaps knee) ha, ha, ha! How about just Category:Dog experts? Because, you know, Moose, Rin Tin Tin and Pal are dog professionals....Quill 22:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My old Siberian Husky, who was way too smart for her own good but none-the-less had a calm and knowing demeanor, was referred to by many of my friends as "Sheba the famous dog psychologist." So I know what you mean. But I think we then run into the same issue no matter what we append to "Dog"--after all, Sheba was an expert at escaping, for example. Were you thinking that the links would be to specific individuals or to articles about general professions? We could go a bit wordier with Professions related to dogs. Elf | Talk 23:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...good points all. Whether it should include, professions never occurred to me; I was thinking professionals. Is their an article to be written about (human) dog psychologists (with all due respect to dear departed Sheba) or is that just the stuff of sitcom myth? How about category:dog-related professions and throw the lot in there until we have so d*d many articles we have to split it up again? Quill 00:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK by me. (Side note: In my experience, "dog behaviorist" seems to be the more current/useful term for people who understand how dogs think and what to do about it... although some of them say "Hey, I'm just a dog trainer, don't need no fancy name". ) Elf | Talk 15:43, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed the category to category:dog-related professions and professionals which I thought would be all-inclusive and now I have two categories (that one + category:dog-related professions. I moved everything out of the latter but it's still there and I'm giving up. Quill 22:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can delete the shorter one but are you sure that such a long category name is usable? Something it'll be easy to remember & type? Just double-checking... Elf | Talk 03:19, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fact check--does anyone know off hand...?

Okay, exactly how many dogs--or characters--have stars on the walk of fame? (From the Pal (dog actor) article.)

If it's only two, my money's on Rinty. Another WP article says three.

I'm going for three until we check it. Quill 22:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to this site, Lassie, Rinty, and Strongheart are indeed all 3 honored with stars.

Elf | Talk 23:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[singing] I think you're amazing...Quill

I'd like to thank all the little googles that made this possible. Elf | Talk 15:43, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Personal note

I have a new Border Collie puppy. photo here with breeder (not me). Will this detract from my wikitime? I hope so. ;-) Elf | Talk 17:25, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Does he have one blue eye and one yellow? What are your plans for him?The Dogfather 20:01, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Responding on User talk:Elf which is probably where I should've started this. Elf | Talk 21:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dog law category

I just added a new Category:Dog law and have at the moment only 4 articles to put there. Seems to me there must be more. Please add relevant articles to this catg. Thx. Elf | Talk 19:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Modified breed table fmt

Someone not in dog project has made suggested fmt change to the breed table standard. Having just gone through all the breeds (twice) myself making std tweaks, I'm not inclined to take on making the changes. But does anyone object to the change itself? I think it's OK... Elf | Talk 19:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Multiple terrier lists

Please see Talk:Terrier for discussion on consolidating lists. Elf | Talk 17:03, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Category:Extinct dog breeds

I've added this new category. Don't know that we really have any other articles to go there yet, but if you think of any... Elf | Talk 21:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Making a note here (in the hope that I'll come across it again) to add at least a stub on English White Terrier and Smithfield. Quill 22:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Famous dogs vs champion dogs

Lately people have been adding dogs who are merely champions (although I know that's an accomplishment) to the lists of famous dogs of that breed. It's doesn't seem to make sense for an encyclopedia to track all champions of all breeds of all time. I've removed them. Also see Talk:Dobermann#What makes a .22famous.22 Dobie. Elf | Talk 18:59, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree, unless there is something else very special about this particular champion, like the winningest champeen of all time, or the dog is also a supermodel, or use of this stud dog saved the breed from extinction, or something else distinguishing....Quill 22:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Dog Registries, continued from above

I have been looking for the best place within Wikipedia to start contributing under some sort of a dog "registry OR club" heading, I like to suggest that there should be category for "breed-clubs" that could link to dogs, cats, horses, etc., AND all of their related breeding, registry, and training clubs/organizations, which is an absolute jungle that no single person can know completely. The North-American dog-registry-club-environment is relatively simple, compared to the International dog-registry-club-environment, which I tried to penetrate a few years ago (as can be seen on this page).

BTW, I found that two registry articles Breed registry AND registry do excist now, but nothing for Hundezucht. And I think that there needs to be a corrolation between the German and the English registry articles, because the international environment is so much more complicated and most of the reliable info of it will likely come from German sorces. --Rgsd 20:31, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to approach this. What you're suggesting sounds more like a link farm, which wikipedia isn't. There are so many for each breed, and so many claims that this one or that one isn't the *real* or *legitimate* one, and so very very very many breed clubs that I recommend we don't try to list them at all. Seems to me that putting links to fairly well-established registries under each breed's External Links section is the best way to do this. Elf | Talk 18:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Remove List of dog fighting breeds?

See Talk:List of dog fighting breeds & comment there. Elf | Talk 18:22, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Bulldog vs English Bulldog

There was just a quick move of the Bulldog article to the English Bulldog article; we (dog project) had a discussion on this topic over a year ago when we first created these pages and now I can't find it. (a) does anyone remember the discussion/can you find it? (b) please weigh in with opinions on the article name changes or other options. Thanks. Elf | Talk 23:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Merging a few breeds?

I was having a quick look through a few breeds and noticed that some dog stubs are practically unexpandable without repeating what is in an article on a seperate variety on the same breed (see phalene and papillon for an example)

I was wondering if it would be more logical to have the two varietes in one article over having a permanent stub, does anyone else share my views?

Oh, and before dosy me forgets, im sorry if this issue has already been adressed, i hae had a lookround most of the dog project pages and related talk pages and couldent find anything. I accept my punishment if i missed it *cowers in corner awaiting a beating* ;) Tekana (O.o) Talk 16:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Now, now, when training you, I'm *sure* I always only used treats and praise and almost NEVER beat you soundly for your transgressions.

What we had decided over time was that each separately recognized breed would have its own page. This does make it challenging to decide what info goes where, as in your example, and also with Belgian Sheepdogs and Welsh Corgis and the various Jack Russell Terrier incarnations and others. However, I think that Phalene and Papillon afficionados would be horrified to discover that their breeds were combined into a single article. Most breed books that I have (and I have a bunch) have separate entries for every breed, and since Wikipedia isn't paper, it should be at least as generous in devoting space to the various breeds. Which leaves editors with the task of being creative on how to reference shared information--but that should be *easier* than on paper, since we can cheerily create as many active links as we need! :-) Elf | Talk 18:24, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, just to clarify, like a lot of decisions, some occurred over time in different talk areas--project pages, breed pages, more scattered than one would like. SO I don't know whether there's one spot that says this exactly or whether it's a strategy that formed over the discussions about some of these aforementioned "problem" breeds. Elf | Talk 23:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I do understand... it just seems a bit, well, redundant! Phalene and Papillon are literally, exactly the same breed! The only difference is the ears. You can get Phalene pups from parents that are both Papillons and vice versa... Exactly the same breed, just different ears!

To me it just seems a bit silly to have a page for each, as i have said, you cannot really expand on one without completely repeating yourself from the other; Appearance is the same (apart from the ears), history is the same, temperaments are the same.

It is the same story with meny other breeds! Im not suggsting that we should do this to save space or anything similar; but wouldn't it be easier reserch for everyone else, as well as helping out the Dog Project by having a well sorted, nice and lengthy article over two unexpandable stubs? Tekana (O.o) Talk 10:44, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

But they're not the same breed according to most of the world, only AKC and KC. I think it's better that they all remain separate articles, since many groups consider them to be separate breeds. I don't see why we couldn't just have an intro paragraph that describes the difference between pap & phal & notes what yo've noted, that some places consider them separate breeds and others don't and that they can (still, presumably) come froom the same litter (although I wonder whether the clubs that consider them seaprate breeds now would in fact allow that), and then just say "History: See papillon", "health: see papillon", "appearance; except for drop ears, same as papillon". That would be one way to avoid duplicating text. I don't think an article has to be really long to be successful. Elf | Talk 16:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I suppose that would be possible, but then wouldent the Phalene just be an empty shell of an article? What would be the point of have a whole page that is just a fancy looking redirect to the Papillon article?

Obviously, if the feet of the whole dog breed project is stapled firmply to the floor, one person is not going to change anything, and if that is the case i will just accept my loss and move on. But im just trying to provide a (what i hope is plausible) secound option to try and improve WP in general.

Besides I thought the definition of "breed" is when two members of the same breed mate, they create offspring that is both similar to the parents and consistant in that way. So, would not that make the majourity of the world (no matter how influental) technically wrong? I am pretty sure that i am correct in what i say about phalene pups reared from papillon parents, ill have a check to make sure! Tekana (O.o) Talk 17:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but that's democracy, even if the majority is wrong, they're right. Yes, you're correct about phal/pap pups in the same litter. And nothing around here is 'stapled to the floor', but I think you'd lose the vote on this one. Quill 23:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, ahem, the definition of "breed" varies considerably. People who care, though, care a *lot*. In Canada, if two black belgian shepherds throw a brown puppy, that's just then called a Tervuren; in other words, all the belgian "breeds" are simply considered to be coat-color variants of one breed. In the US (AKC), if two black belgians throw a terv, that's a defective dog because Tervs are considered a separate breed, and isn't eligible for the show ring or anything else and you'd just better dang well not plan on breeding it. So we can't list tervs and belgians as the same breed even though you can get different colored puppies that in some countries are OK, because there are many people & clubs who very emphatically do NOT consider them to be the same breed. I believe the same is true in some places for the phal/pap.

Yes, you're right--people who care about such things REALLY care. Tekana, you're right about the pap/phal puppies in the same litter, but they ARE considered different breeds most places. In fact, some phal breeders feel that judges can't judge phals properly next to paps and want completely separate judging. Quill 23:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

And, BTW, how come no one else has anything to say on this subject? :-) Elf | Talk 17:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

(...because the rest of us have lives?? Oh, wait a minute...I don't have a life....)

Thats what I was wondering. Anyhoo, our discussion, no matter how interesting and entertaining, is not really getting us anywhere. I am aware that you have been involved in the project a lot longer than me, therefore your opinion will probably be a lot more influential than mine, but i feel we really do need a third opinion. Fancy haveing a vote between all involved in the project? Tekana (O.o) Talk 18:39, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd recommend doing it on an article-by-article basis because I don't think it's possible to generalize. So you'd want to post such a query here and on each of the affected articles' talk pgs. Elf | Talk 20:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Okely dokely! Hmm, i think it will be a while before I start on that though, got a few things i want to get done first! Tekana (O.o) Talk 20:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, definitely article-by-article. I vote pap/phal stays separate, as does the Belgian....Quill 23:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Breed research table for starting/updating breed articles

Wayyyy back in the ages dark, back when Sannse was one of the main keepers of the WP dog world, she did a tremendous amount of research into dog breed names--which were the most common in English-language breed clubs and/or on English web pages, what the alternative names were, and so on. And she made a table of all of them, also indicating which group each was registered with in the various kennel clubs. Now--I know you all wish you'd had this yesterday--but I just finished converting it from Excel to wikipedia table markup, and it's a very large table. It's now listed on this project page under subpages; may I present: Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Breed source list. Elf | Talk 22:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Yorkie, puggle, breed lists

Please help me by voting on 3 items, since all the discussions seem to be between me & one other person (sometimes no discussion at all) and I'd just like to know what others think:

• Go to Puggle vote as to whether Puggle should be a disambiguation page or a breed page (and whether Puggle should have its own article anyway).
• Go to Yorkie photo vote as to which photo should be the main photo for the breed table.
• Go to ABC headings in lists for whether we can come up with a general guideline for ABC headings in lists.

Thanks; it will be very helpful to have your opinions. Elf | Talk 16:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote for keeping Enzo (dog actor) (or not)

For anyone who's remotely interested, there's a vote for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enzo (dog actor) based on the argument that no one cares about dog actors. Quill raises some valid points on that vote but at the moment it's only 2 SAVE votes and the rest to delete and replace with a redirect to Moose (dog actor). Thanks. Elf | Talk 02:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems that the vote is closed and action has been taken. I'm not the most dedicated Wikipedian, but I certainly never got a chance to put my two cents in. Dsurber 02:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Breed Capitalizations - clarification and manual of style

There's been a few helpful people of late who have gone through articles decapitalizing the dog breed names.

I reverted one of them, but before I fixed Greyhound, I thought that I should check for the policy.

I don't see the issue spelled out anywhere on the dog pages, there are mentions here and there, and I recall some people like Elf mentioning it on some individual breed talk page, but I cannot figure out where it is (too many search results) - if i have to search that hard, i'm going blind or It needs to be discussed and then spelled out in a more proper place.

The wiki project tree of life and wikipedia manual of style seems to waffle on the issue of capitization of specific names, admitting that there is academic debate. So, it's seems like it's up to us to define the dog project style guide.

From this discussion it seemed that the consensus was that all dog breed names are proper nouns and therefore we should always capitalize all parts of the dog breed name. I infer from this that we should capitalize all breed names throughout the article, unless it is a mention of a breed type.

What I would like to ask here is to clarify the standard so that I know what to do in the future.

Example:

• All of the pit bull breeds are highly maligned. American Pit Bull Terriers are considered to be both pit bulls and terriers.
• The German Shepherd Dog was one of the first dog breeds to be used as guide dogs.

I think that's a good way to do it, but I'm not attached to it. Comments? Tell me that it's listed somewhere and I'm smoking crack? - Trysha ^(talk) 08:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am the clod who decapitalized the Greyhounds. Since anyone can edit any article, it is going to be difficult to make them all aware of this convention. Even at goldengreyhounds.com the convention is not well followed. I will undo the damage if you like, and for sure I will not decapitalize the Jack Russells or the Italian Greyhounds. Those are easy. How about putting capitalization comments at the top of each section, so that only people who open the section for editing will see them? Chris the speller 16:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, you aren't a clod. I hope you dont' feel insulted. I agree that it's impossible for everyone to know the standards besides how many editors have read the wikipedia manual of style? probably noone. It's just up to people on the dog project who watch all these pages to go back and fix them when they become "out of standard" and post helpful bits of info to those who want to edit them pages. It'll work well if we pick something and stick with it. - Trysha ^(talk) 19:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you only capitalize the name when referring to the breed as a whole, or also when referring to one or more dogs? For instance, is it 'The Greyhound was not represented at the Chicken Chase Dog Show this year' but 'The greyhound promptly treed the intruding cat'? American Heritage Dictionary does not capitalize greyhound -- have we complained to them? Chris the speller 20:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

silly. dog breed button

I like the little buttons but that people have in their babel boxes and, there are buttons for everything so I made a dog breed project breed button.

If people like it, feel free to add it to your user page by adding the following to their user page:

{{User dogproject-en}}

Or, inside your babel box by increasing the number by one and adding: "dogproject-en".

If people want to thwap me for being silly, or want to make changes - feel free :)

Oh yes, and the button is:

- Trysha ^(talk) 23:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, cool! I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff. So if anyone else wants an example, you can look at my user page. Elf | Talk 01:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Your feedback wanted on kennel page

I listed a new page about a breeder's kennel on AFD; there has been very little discussion there. There's a bit there and another comment by same user on the article's talk page. It's just been relisted because there wasn't enough feedback last time around. Please stop in and post your views. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heidisaint Kennels. Elf | Talk 01:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

what should we do for famous dogs

I've noticed that there has been an influx of dogs being added to the "famous dogs" section at the end of each article.

Most of these dogs are simply owned by a famous person and aren't famous themselves. The most recent additions seem to be footnotes to a famous person, not even signature animals like the dogs that Paris Hilton has.

So, I propose that there should be a higher bar for including the dogs in the famous dogs section, here are some suggestions:

• Are famous by themselves (obvious)
• Maybe the pets of a president, prime minister, king, queen, or other person of similar rank.
• Are a signature animal of a given celebrity (you don't see the celeb without the pet)

Not sure that I'm happy with that, but it's a start - comments?

- Trysha ^(talk) 06:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Glad you started this, Trysha, I'm sick of seeing lists of "famous" and "notable" whatevers that aren't either. In fact, I'm sick of lists, period. <end rant>

I'd stick with famous in and of themselves, and signature animals, real or fictional (Buster Brown and Tige comes to mind).

I wouldn't include pets of....for one thing, there's a list of presidential pets somewhere, for another, we'd have Paris Hilton's flavour of the month back, and every soap star's pooch, and....

Quill 21:55, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, too. Elf | Talk 18:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Changing my mind sort of

This is my day for having rethought a lot of stuff. I don't know why. I've been working on Wikipedia now for one week short of 2 years. So why rethinking today? I dunno. BUT I got to thinking that in fact it could be fun, interesting, and educational to know what celebrities own a particular breed of dog. I just got to thinking about "Wikipedia is not paper" and that this info is something that people might in fact want to know about. If we insisted that the dog breed go into the celebrities' articles, the only way to retrieve the list would be to either do a search on the breed (hoping that search is working right at the time, and wade through all the articles that AREN'T about celebrities that also would pop up), or click the What Links Here link, which isn't really an effective way of conveying that information.

I realize that having a section "Celebrity Maltese owners" or "Celebrity GSD owners" opens us up for possibly long lists--but I'm beginning to think that's not a bad thing. But I still agree that they don't belong in the list of "Famous dogs" unless the dogs really are famous, so yes we'd need 2 sections (famous dogs & celebrity owners).

Elf | Talk 05:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah Elf, you're a girl after my own heart. :o) I have a very long list of famous people owned by Maltese (and yes, they own you, not the other way around) but I only added a few, very notable people like Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, Liberace, Talulah Bankhead and Elvis, to the article. Some other names were added along the way by other editors. I myself, find it very interesting to know what famous people have owned what type of dogs through the years. Of course I am particularly interested in the Maltese but it is interesting to know about other breeds owned by famous people. I know you, Trysha, Quill and others work tirelessly on this project. I will go along with the majority because I'm sure you all have put a lot of forethought into the decisions you make regarding the different breeds, but I too find this a interesting bit of trivia to add to the pages. Maltmomma ^(chat) 05:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Vote on Mexican Hairless article name

Your input requested on vote on whether to rename the M.H. article and, if so, what. Talk:Mexican Hairless. Elf | Talk 17:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Corrections and fixes

Discuss template implementation issues here: Template talk:Infobox Dogbreed.

Discussions about what should/shouldn't be in the template should continue on the /Templates subpage talk page. Elf | Talk 04:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Vote at Chinese Crested

We'd like input from folks here, please, on whether to include a copy of Sam in the breed article: Talk:Chinese Crested Dog. Thanks. Elf | Talk 01:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Input needed on confomation point

1. I did some fiddling with conformation point today, and when linking subjects, found that many of them already linked related contexts, usually having to do with humans, such as temperament, or with other animals such as gait (horse gait.

I'm going to add dogs to these, but don't want to step on the toes of the psychology buffs by suddenly adding some stinking dogs as one scientist put it a few months back to their articles. I think I'm asking should I just add in a reference to dogs' conformation point, or set up temperament (dog)? We now have gait (dog) but to tell the absolute truth, who on earth would go looking for dog gait? Any thoughts?

1. I had to redirect Fault (conformation point) to Fault (dog), which is where the article is, and I now think it should be the other way round, since there are conformation points in other arimal fancies as well. If you agree, Elf or Sannse can you fix? Thanks.

Quill 22:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I think dog gait is better better because it's a more natural english phrase than "gait (dog)" and because there's also horse gait. I don't know that anyone would go looking for "horse gait", either, but more like "horse's gait" or "gait of a horse", but I don't think those make good article titles.

I think fault (dog) is better than fault (conformation point) because it's clearer (and it's easier to type). The former is also more specific, allowing it to discuss specifically dogs, rather than the latter, which would force all animals who are evaluated for conformation to be discussed in the same article. Although there are similarities, I'm not sure there are *that* many similarities. I pondered dog fault for a minute, but that doesn't feel right to me.

And I think an article on dog temperament would be fine.

Elf | Talk 01:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Please vote on deleting Maltipoo, Yorkiepoo, Schnoodle

Please go here to here (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yorkiepoo) to express your opinion. Thanks. Elf | Talk 17:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Reviving subtemplate discussion so please review

Thanks to prompting from User:Philopedia, would like your feedback here so that we can go to town on this. This is about adding height, weight, color, etc. to the end of the breed tables. Thanks.Elf | Talk 06:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Photo format opinions wanted (esp. dog-breed folks)

Particularly those active in dog-breed project--Please stop by and offer a quick opinion on one of 3 choices for photo & caption format in the dog-breed template. Template_talk:Infobox_Dogbreed#Format_of_photos. Thanks. Elf | Talk 18:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Moved votes to Template talk:Infobox Dogbreed. Elf | Talk 17:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

New photo request template

Hey, guys, there's now a breed-specific photo request template. It's generic so it can apply to cats & horses, too. Elf | Talk 03:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Dog portal

Oh good lord, just when you think you're starting to get a grasp on things--there's now a concept called "Portals" which are designed to help readers plunge into wikipedia on particular directed topics. You can read more at Wikipedia:Portal namespace and Wikipedia:Portal (which includes instructions on creating a new portal). Some samples from which we could easily steal ideas related to the dog project include Portal:Beer, Portal:Writing, Portal:Cars. I think it would be a great addition to WP to add Portal:Dogs. But I'm exhausted from straightening out all the requested photo stuff. And I'm supposed to be staying away from Wikipedia, according to my court order ;-) . Anyone else motivated and excited about this concept? Elf | Talk 05:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Go to discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Portals. Elf | Talk 17:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it's going to take me a little time to get my head around this one...Quill 22:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Coefficient of Inbreeding

Many breeders are starting to use a COI in their puppy information. There are a number of sites on line that explain how the COI is calculated. If any of the contributors are vet's or have a strong biology background, I think it would be useful to have an article explaining this tool and what it means. I can give it a shot if there is not anyone more qualified than I, but I do not have the time right now.--Counsel 17:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Joelmills is a vet who has been contributing a lot to WP. You might check in with him. Elf | Talk 00:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Hokkaido

I created the article Hokkaido (dog) and hope that an expert will edit it thoroughly. Thanks Fg2 10:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Boggle (dog)

Since did this for about 5 other *poo dogs a while ago - we should do it for this one - vote again! Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Boggle (dog). - Trysha ^(talk) 21:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• More to vote on, but I'm starting to think we should leave them ("WP isn't paper" and people will be coming & looking for these and eventually I think the articles will prevail and we'll be losing all the work that's been done on them so far... Elf | Talk 00:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Puggle (dog)
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Borderjack
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cavachon
  • And what about Pekeapoo, which has been an article stub for almost 3 years and listed in the dog breeds list and everything?

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project

Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Cheers, Shanel 20:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Off the top of my head:

• Dog is close to FAability, I think (Class A).
• Australian Shepherd is reasonable for a breed article but I'm sure there are others.

Elf | Talk 20:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Dog is great, we already had this as a key topic, this is likely to go in an early release. Would you rate Australian Shepherd as A-Class, or are there important things still to add? Even a B-Class is probably usable, it typically just lacks coverage in one or two areas. We will be tracking articles from this project on our list here, feel free to add to the listings there. Walkerma 05:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Portuguese Pointer

I've created the article about the Portuguese Pointer, please review it and change it according to your standards. I'll add a picture soon, since I own one. Afonso Silva 14:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Article style questions

My first question is: is it incorrect style to include the name of the kennel that bred the dog in the photo caption (for example Welsh Springer Spaniel)? I would interprit this as advertising, but it seems to be somewhat prevalent so I want to get conformation that it is incorrect before I start changing things. Second question: is using male pronouns (he, his, etc) to refer to the breed as a whole bad style (example Boxer temperament section). I relise that many KCs use male pronouns, but is it appropriate for Wiki? --Pharaoh Hound 14:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say it would be incorrect to advertise the breeders, and would remove any mention of such. I think the name of the kennel should be allowed mention only in the uploader's description of the photo, as to give proper rights. I consider the use of gender pronouns to be in bad taste, and and would change it to a neutral pronoun. Vortex 18:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I would not include the breeder name, that is bad form. I would remove such as well. I also agree with the usage of neutral pronouns. - Trysha ^(talk) 20:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Great, I'll start changing problems that I see. --Pharaoh Hound 16:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Dog portal update

I made some additions to Portal:Dogs and added it to the List. I'll fill in more details later. Feel free to join in. :-) Rfrisbie^talk 18:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 23:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

KC (UK) website for infoboxes

Just in case no one else noticed, the KC changed their site, so we'll have to fix every infobox for breeds that they accept. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 12:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

duplicate project

Seems that some folks have created Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs, we should get together and sort stuff out ;) - Trysha ^(talk) 20:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

So far as I can tell, as one of the few members of the project mentioned above, the purpose of it is to cover all aspects of dogs, not just the breeds. This would include dog health, behavior, food, and whatnot. It may also eventually include the rest of the canine family, or at least I hope so. And, as the one adding the banners to a few articles, I think it might be the better place to propose any assessments and collaborations, given its slightly broader scope. There is no hope or intention, at least on my part, to attempt to supplant or replace this project, simply to create a project with slightly broader scope and somewhat different activities. I personally wouldn't mind seeing the two merge, but I'm not all that sure about how this project defines itself, so I think it would be more than a little presumptuous of me to propose any terms of such a merger. Badbilltucker 22:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Source of the article : Wikipedia